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{{Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/Archives/2021 December 13}}

= December 14 =

== 03:16:29, 14 December 2021 review of submission by 2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5 ==
{{Lafc|username=2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5|ts=03:16:29, 14 December 2021|declined=Draft:Miss_Asia_USA}}

[[Special:Contributions/2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5|2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5]] ([[User talk:2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5|talk]]) 03:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Please help by contributing to the page of Miss Asia USA 
:This class of help is not available at this forum [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span><sup><small>Timtrent</small></sup>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span><sup><small>Talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;me</small></sup>]] 16:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

== 03:24:42, 14 December 2021 review of submission by Zzz2497 ==
{{Lafc|username=Zzz2497|ts=03:24:42, 14 December 2021|page=

}}
i wonder if i am going to create a english topic, can i cite chinese/japansese reference? for example: i am going to create "DOG" ， but my references will be in difference language describing the "dog".

ty.
[[User:Zzz2497|Zzz2497]] ([[User talk:Zzz2497|talk]]) 03:24, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
:Hi {{U|Zzz2497}}. [[WP:NONENG|Non-English]] sources are permissible, but English-language sources are preferred when they're available and of equal quality and relevance. --[[User:Worldbruce|Worldbruce]] ([[User talk:Worldbruce|talk]]) 14:45, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

== 04:49:31, 14 December 2021 review of submission by 2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5 ==
{{Lafc|username=2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5|ts=04:49:31, 14 December 2021|declined=Draft:Miss_Asia_USA}}
Hi, how you fix the number indent? 
Thanks 
[[Special:Contributions/2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5|2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5]] ([[User talk:2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5|talk]]) 04:49, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

:{{Ping| 2603:8000:C001:C4C4:4956:A591:42DC:8BB5}} What do you mean by number indent? If it's the reference formatting, that's not a great format for them. You might want to take a look at [[Help:Referencing for beginners]]. [[User:Rusalkii|<span style="color:#259a83">Rusalkii</span>]] ([[User talk:Rusalkii|talk]]) 03:58, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

== 11:41:19, 14 December 2021 review of submission by 2409:4071:2315:4ABC:0:0:24CA:18B1 ==
{{Lafc|username=2409:4071:2315:4ABC:0:0:24CA:18B1|ts=11:41:19, 14 December 2021|declined=Draft:Nischay_Malhan}}

[[Special:Contributions/2409:4071:2315:4ABC:0:0:24CA:18B1|2409:4071:2315:4ABC:0:0:24CA:18B1]] ([[User talk:2409:4071:2315:4ABC:0:0:24CA:18B1|talk]]) 11:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

== 12:21:15, 14 December 2021 review of submission by Rubbyfem ==
{{Lafc|username=Rubbyfem|ts=12:21:15, 14 December 2021|declined=Draft:Gossy_Ukanwoke}}

[[User:Rubbyfem|Rubbyfem]] ([[User talk:Rubbyfem|talk]]) 12:21, 14 December 2021 (UTC)


This subject is a notable personality. Also all content were duly referenced. Kindly review and revert your decision to unpublish.

:{{Ping|Rubbyfem}} Please take this up with the reviewer who rejected your draft

== 16:29:43, 14 December 2021 review of draft by Howdyfreshhhhh ==
{{Lafc|username=Howdyfreshhhhh|ts=16:29:43, 14 December 2021|draft=Draft:Deep_Joshi_(cricket)}}

Hello,

Could I please get some feedback on my drafts? Thank you very much. 

[[User:Howdyfreshhhhh|Howdyfreshhhhh]] ([[User talk:Howdyfreshhhhh|talk]]) 16:29, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

:@[[User:Howdyfreshhhhh|Howdyfreshhhhh]] It is submitted for review. It will be reviewed. [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span><sup><small>Timtrent</small></sup>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span><sup><small>Talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;me</small></sup>]] 16:33, 14 December 2021 (UTC)


Thank you for your feedback. @TimTrent. Any suggestions as far as editing the pages go? 

[[User:Howdyfreshhhhh|Howdyfreshhhhh]] ([[User talk:Howdyfreshhhhh|talk]]) 16:49, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

:@[[User:Howdyfreshhhhh|Howdyfreshhhhh]] There is no need to start a new section, Please simply edit the existing section.
:I have not reviewed it, so I have no suggestions [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span><sup><small>Timtrent</small></sup>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span><sup><small>Talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;me</small></sup>]] 22:57, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

:@[[User:Timtrent|TimTrent]] Thank you. Are my references and formatting valid?  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Howdyfreshhhhh|Howdyfreshhhhh]] ([[User talk:Howdyfreshhhhh#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Howdyfreshhhhh|contribs]]) 17:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::@[[User:Howdyfreshhhhh|Howdyfreshhhhh]] please compare them with this:
::For a living person we have a high standard of referencing. Every substantive fact you assert, especially one that is susceptible to potential challenge, requires a citation with a reference that is ''about them'', and is ''independent of them'',  in ''multiple [[WP:SECONDARY|secondary sources]]'' which are ''[[WP:RS]]'', and is ''significant coverage''. Please also see [[WP:PRIMARY]] which details the limited permitted usage of primary sources and [[WP:SELFPUB]] which has clear limitations on self published sources. Providing sufficient references, ideally one per fact cited, that meet these tough criteria is likely to make this draft a clear acceptance (0.9 probability). Lack of them or an inability to find them is likely to mean that the person is not suitable for inclusion, certainly today. [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span><sup><small>Timtrent</small></sup>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span><sup><small>Talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;me</small></sup>]] 18:07, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:@[[User:Timtrent|TimTrent]] Understood. Thank you for your help. I believe my Deep Joshi draft has what is required. Will need to find references for my Agam Pandit draft. What do you think?  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Howdyfreshhhhh|Howdyfreshhhhh]] ([[User talk:Howdyfreshhhhh#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Howdyfreshhhhh|contribs]]) 19:19, 17 December 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Request on 19:00:41, 14 December 2021 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by Alexandracusumano ==
{{anchor|19:00:41, 14 December 2021 review of submission by Alexandracusumano}}
{{Lafc|username=Alexandracusumano|ts=19:00:41, 14 December 2021|declinedtalk=Draft:Blake_Slatkin}}

<!-- Start of message -->

Hi! I updated the draft but haven't heard anything about it getting approved yet. Can I please get my draft re-approved asap? Thank you!

<!-- End of message -->[[User:Alexandracusumano|Alexandracusumano]] ([[User talk:Alexandracusumano|talk]]) 19:00, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{u|Alexandracusumano}} You have not actually submitted it for review, you did not have the correct information to do so, I have fixed this so you can now submit it. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 19:04, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
:I see that you declared a COI, if you work for or represent this person, you must make the stricter [[WP:PAID|paid editing]] declaration. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 19:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

== 20:35:00, 14 December 2021 review of draft by Engineersone88 ==
{{Lafc|username=Engineersone88|ts=20:35:00, 14 December 2021|draft=Draft:Eimear_McGeown}}


[[User:Engineersone88|Engineersone88]] ([[User talk:Engineersone88|talk]]) 20:35, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

The page is COMPLETELY 100% original work and wording.  Why is 'Yitz' suggesting it is copy/past ??  It is very insulting and Yitz should not be a reviewer?

:Yitz is quite correct, the text in that draft consists mainly of phrases and sentences copied from various other websites, sometimes with minimal changes in phrasing, but not enough to remove the copyright violations; that also explains the promotional tone of the draft. The slight rephrasings e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Eimear_McGeown&diff=prev&oldid=1060295346 here] have also led to some awkward expressions, such as when "Two of her most notable solo performances..." was changed to "Her two notable solo performances...", or to changes in meaning like "Eimear mixes the styles..." which was changed into "Eimear utilises the styles...". --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 21:43, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Where can you go to dispute a reviewer comment? [[User:Engineersone88|Engineersone88]] ([[User talk:Engineersone88|talk]]) 22:04, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
:If you wish to dispute that the draft was copy/pasted, please discuss that with the reviewer on the talk page of the draft, or with the reviewer directly on their user talk page.  If you want outside comment, please ask here.  If you have additional comment, please edit this existing section, instead of creating additional sections. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 22:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
::@[[User:Engineersone88|Engineersone88]] I'm trying to give you some thoughts on your own talk page.  Approaching midnight here where I am, but I'm happy to try to offer you some help when I am not asleep or otherwise occupied [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span><sup><small>Timtrent</small></sup>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span><sup><small>Talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;me</small></sup>]] 23:14, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

'''RESPONSE:''' [[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span><sup><small>Talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;me</small></sup>]] You have been absolutely great.  Thankyou for your advice.  the only person who has helps so far. And not another slap on the face for no reason.   Thankyou so much.  <nowiki>Engineersone88</nowiki>  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Engineersone88|Engineersone88]] ([[User talk:Engineersone88#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Engineersone88|contribs]]) 23:56, 14 December 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

= December 15 =

== Request on 04:58:55, 15 December 2021 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by ApprenticeFan ==
{{anchor|04:58, 15 December 2021 (UTC) review of submission by ApprenticeFan}}
{{Lafc|username=ApprenticeFan|ts=04:58, 15 December 2021 (UTC)|declinedtalk=Draft:Miss_USA_2022}}

<!-- Start of message -->
The request of this draft working article as two state pageants had already crowned in September as state pageants are currently underway for the 2022 edition.

<!-- End of message -->[[User:ApprenticeFan|<font color="indigo">'''ApprenticeWiki'''</font>]] <span style="font-size:85%;">[[:Special:Contributions/ApprenticeFan|<font color="#919191">'''''work'''''</font>]]</span> 04:58, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

== 13:59:32, 15 December 2021 review of draft by 72.74.26.127 ==
{{Lafc|username=72.74.26.127|ts=13:59:32, 15 December 2021|draft=Draft:Wentworth-Douglass_Hospital}}


I'm confused as to why this article was declined. Wikipedia has made it clear that articles on hospitals are notable, and this is a well-known hospital in New Hampshire that has existed for 115 years. In fact, it's the only hospital in the [[Mass General Brigham]] system without a Wikipedia page - including much smaller hospitals.

All the information was sourced directly from the hospital's website and a book that was written on the hospital. I don't believe it reads like an advertisement whatsoever.

What needs to change to get this approved? Can an editor just make adjustments?

[[Special:Contributions/72.74.26.127|72.74.26.127]] ([[User talk:72.74.26.127|talk]]) 13:59, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
:The draft requires independent sources, which is what we base articles on, we have virtually no interest in what their own website has to say. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 14:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

I definitely understand the need to have independent sources to make sure articles don't become advertisements. However, the information here is simple facts from the authoritative source. None of the drafted content is in question or controversial in any way. It's just information about the facility, it's history, and its services. It's the same place an independent journalist would get accurate information about the hospital's operations. For example, you're not going to find a list of a hospital's services anywhere else but their website and that's certainly reliable information. With that in mind, what else can be done here? Happy to change language if necessary. [[Special:Contributions/72.74.26.127|72.74.26.127]] ([[User talk:72.74.26.127|talk]]) 16:46, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
:An article about a hospital should not be merely describing its services, unless independent reliable sources do that(which they do sometimes do). It is true that [[WP:PRIMARY|primary sources]] can be used in some circumstances, but not to establish notability. The article should tell us not what the hospital considers to be its own history, but what independent sources say its history is. The need for independent reliable sources is not necessarily to prevent articles from being advertisements, but is to ensure a [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]] that can be [[WP:V|verified]]. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 17:02, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Well the article does much more than describe services - that's just a part of it. And the history of the hospital was procured from a book written about it, which is sourced on the page. How do you appropriately cite a book on Wikipedia if it's only available in print?  I'll try to add some additional sourcing, as well. [[Special:Contributions/72.74.26.127|72.74.26.127]] ([[User talk:72.74.26.127|talk]]) 14:48, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

== 16:24:09, 15 December 2021 review of submission by MOLALEYE17 ==
{{Lafc|username=MOLALEYE17|ts=16:24:09, 15 December 2021|declined=User:MOLALEYE17/sandbox}}

[[User:MOLALEYE17|MOLALEYE17]] ([[User talk:MOLALEYE17|talk]]) 16:24, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


can you help with my article
:{{u|MOLALEYE17}}, Given wikipedia already has an article [[chatbot]], I am unsure of what you are trying to accomplish. [[User:Slywriter|Slywriter]] ([[User talk:Slywriter|talk]]) 16:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
{{u|Slywriter}}, I believe that {{u|MOLALEY17}} is suggesting a draft of an article named something like [[Chatbots in medicine]]. Maccore Henni [[User:Mac Henni|user]] [[User talk: Mac Henni|talk]] Respond using [[Template:Talkback|tb]], please. 23:54, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

== 23:11:11, 15 December 2021 review of submission by Mac Henni: clarification on notability ==


I want to clarify one of the  [[WP:BAND]] rules.  Would the [https://talentrecap.com/the-voices-girl-named-tom-tops-the-u-s-and-canadian-itunes-charts/| iTunes chart] count as a chart as per rule 2?  (That source probaly wouldn't be one I used...)
Maccore Henni [[User:Mac Henni|user]] [[User talk: Mac Henni|talk]] Respond using [[Template:Talkback|tb]], please. 23:11, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
'''I want to note that I am trying to figure how to get this article across. I have not edited it quite yet, and am needing guidence''' Maccore Henni [[User:Mac Henni|user]] [[User talk: Mac Henni|talk]] Respond using [[Template:Talkback|tb]], please. 23:12, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
:No. Vendor-/platform-specific charts never count.  —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">A little blue Bori</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Jéské Couriano]]</small></sup> 02:58, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Okay, thanks Maccore Henni [[User:Mac Henni|user]] [[User talk: Mac Henni|talk]] Respond using [[Template:Talkback|tb]], please. 15:51, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

= December 16 =

== 06:43:22, 16 December 2021 review of submission by Generic son of the Sun ==
{{Lafc|username=Generic son of the Sun|ts=06:43:22, 16 December 2021|page=
Society for Protecting the Rights of the Child

}}
The draft I submitted for this page was rejected. My issue is I actually only need to publish a translation for the main page of this society which is in Persian. And this is a translation for that one. So how shall I give a reference? Is referring to the main page in Persian enough? Or shall I refer to the website of the Society? There is no English version on the website either.

[[User:Generic son of the Sun|Generic son of the Sun]] ([[User talk:Generic son of the Sun|talk]]) 06:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{ping|Generic son of the Sun}} I presume you mean this is a translation from the Persian/Farsi Wikipedia? (If you mean it's a translation from the organisation's webpage, we can't accept it because content from an organisation's website [[WP:Neutral point of view|is almost never suitable for Wikipedia.]]) Even if it's just a straight translation the result must still adhere to en.wp's policies, and the English-language Wikipedia has some of the strictest sourcing policies around. Translation or no, you will need to provide [[WP:Reliable sources|in-depth sources that are independent of the subject/their surrogates and have competent editorial oversight that fact-checks, discloses, and retracts as necessary.]]  —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">A little blue Bori</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Jéské Couriano]]</small></sup> 07:40, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

== 14:45:49, 16 December 2021 review of submission by 175.142.191.211 ==

I just want to create "Starscixn" article but when I create, why you declined my article?. [[Special:Contributions/175.142.191.211|175.142.191.211]] ([[User talk:175.142.191.211|talk]]) 14:45, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
::As noted, the musician you wrote about is not notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia.  Wikipedia is not a place to just tell about someone. An article about a musician must summarize what independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about the musician, showing how they meet the special Wikipedia definition of [[WP:BAND|a notable musician]].  Your draft just tells that the person exists and sources it to the availability of their music.  That is insufficient to establish notability, as almost anyone can post music online.  Please see [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]]. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:49, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

== 17:45:40, 16 December 2021 review of draft by 80.1.217.168 ==
{{Lafc|username=80.1.217.168|ts=17:45:40, 16 December 2021|draft=Draft:The_Basic_Necessities_Survey_(BNS)}}


My article has been rejected because of inadequate referencing of sources. Yet there are 23 in all. Can you advise me on (a) what is wrong with any of the reference's i.e how they can be improved, (b) where in the text references are needed but not yet present?

[[Special:Contributions/80.1.217.168|80.1.217.168]] ([[User talk:80.1.217.168|talk]]) 17:45, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{ping|80.1.217.1.168}} As i stated in the comments, several sections lack citations. Without citations, its impossible to tell if the material is supported by the numerous references.  
:Look at definitions section, is that your own description or is that what sources say is the definition? Same for 2nd half of Origins and all of adaptations and half of comparisons sections[[User:Slywriter|Slywriter]] ([[User talk:Slywriter|talk]]) 17:58, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

== 20:03:43, 16 December 2021 review of submission by JackDaniel2022 ==
{{Lafc|username=JackDaniel2022|ts=20:03:43, 16 December 2021|page=
Draft:Swami_Select
}}
My first attempt to create a new Wiki page was denied due to a lack of sourcing. I have since added quite a bit more and there are hundreds more articles about this brand to choose from. I just want to be sure I am on the right track as I continue to build the page. Thank you!
[[User:JackDaniel2022|JackDaniel2022]] ([[User talk:JackDaniel2022|talk]]) 20:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
:You're on completely the wrong track, sorry. There is literally nothing salvageable here; you'll have to start from scratch (assuming your sources are good, which I haven't checked). [[User:DragonflySixtyseven|DS]] ([[User talk:DragonflySixtyseven|talk]]) 20:13, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
:[[User:JackDaniel2022|JackDaniel2022]], to be more specific, the page reads like ad copy, not an encyclopedic article. "mindfully cultivates", "proudly held", "this sacred plant" are some of the worst offenders, but the entire page is heavily slanted. If you're associated with the company, take a look at [[WP:COIE]]; otherwise you'll need to to rewrite the page by stating just the straightforward facts about the organization with no flowery language. [[User:Rusalkii|<span style="color:#259a83">Rusalkii</span>]] ([[User talk:Rusalkii|talk]]) 21:52, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

== 20:07:11, 16 December 2021 review of draft by ThinkerCastillo ==
{{Lafc|username=ThinkerCastillo|ts=20:07:11, 16 December 2021|draft=Draft:Luciano_Castillo}}


Hello, Could you please review the new draft after the suggested edits?

[[User:ThinkerCastillo|ThinkerCastillo]] ([[User talk:ThinkerCastillo|talk]]) 20:07, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

:Unfortunately there's a backlog right now, so it might take a while before someone gets to your draft. [[User:Rusalkii|<span style="color:#259a83">Rusalkii</span>]] ([[User talk:Rusalkii|talk]]) 17:29, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

== 23:24:41, 16 December 2021 review of submission by 94.14.61.78 ==
{{Lafc|username=94.14.61.78|ts=23:24:41, 16 December 2021|declined=Draft:Aartii_Naagpal}}
Please review this wiki page as this is page is for a bollywood actress and her name is Aartii Naagpal also ive added loads of references. 
[[Special:Contributions/94.14.61.78|94.14.61.78]] ([[User talk:94.14.61.78|talk]]) 23:24, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
:Unfortunately, the draft was rejected, meaning that it will not be considered further, as it appears that she does not meet the special Wikipedia definition of [[WP:NACTOR|a notable actress]] or [[WP:BIO|a notable person]]. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:29, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

= December 17 =

== 16:15:44, 17 December 2021 review of submission by ClaudiaDenkinger ==
{{Lafc|username=ClaudiaDenkinger|ts=16:15:44, 17 December 2021|page=
Claudia Denkinger
}} 

A draft article was declined with the justification that it is not clear how this person meets WP:ACADEMIC and that all information should be referenced. I am not sure how I should meet these criteria and prove achievements in the biography of the individual. Certain things such as Master Studies, jobs not listed on the Internet other steps in their life are difficult to reference. 

Any help on making the edits such that the article can be published is very much appreciated. 

Thank you in advance for all your efforts. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:ClaudiaDenkinger|ClaudiaDenkinger]] ([[User talk:ClaudiaDenkinger#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ClaudiaDenkinger|contribs]]) </span>
:{{u|ClaudiaDenkinger}} You seem to be saying that you are not Claudia Denkinger; if so, you must change your username immediately, please make a request at [[Special:GlobalRenameRequest]] or [[WP:CHUS]]. If you are not her, you do not need to "prove achievements" so much as you need to summarize what independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about her, showing how she meets [[WP:NACADEMIC]].  If there are no such sources, she would not merit a Wikipedia article. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

== 21:12:00, 17 December 2021 review of draft by Luelcambe ==
{{Lafc|username=Luelcambe|ts=21:12:00, 17 December 2021|draft=Draft:The_Stereo_Scope_(Band)}}

Hello!

I am currently writing an article about our band The Stereo Scope.
This is to improve our searchability when we are searched on Google, and have proper info about our band besides them going to our official website.
What would be the things that I should improve upon?

[[User:Luelcambe|Luelcambe]] ([[User talk:Luelcambe|talk]]) 21:12, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{u|Luelcambe}} Please understand that- to be frank- Wikipedia has no interest in enhancing search results for your band, or in helping your fans.  Our only interest is in summarizing what independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about your band, showing how it meets the special Wikipedia definition of [[WP:BAND|a notable band]]. To succeed at this, you need to set aside everything you know about the band and all materials put out by the band or its associates, and only write based on the content of independent sources.  [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 21:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
::Wikipedia also cannot help with searchability beyond the article. [[m:Nofollow|We use NOFOLLOW]], which tells search engines that respect robots.txt to disregard outgoing links.  —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">A little blue Bori</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Jéské Couriano]]</small></sup> 22:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

:::{{u|Luelcambe}}: Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia written by its readers and the subjects for our articles are generally chosen by the editing community rather than written by the subject. Please note that although Wikipedia has many band articles, our website is not a business or web directory. For more information about why this is so, please see [[WP:NOTDIR]]. You may also find it helpful to view these pages [[Wikipedia:Notability]] and [[WP:MUSIC]].

:::You should be aware we strongly discourage articles written by individuals close to a subject because of the inherent problem of "conflict of interest"— this is the difficulty in writing objectively about your band. You can read more about the issues around conflict-of-interest editing here: [[WP:COI]] which you appear to already know about. [[User:Ww2censor|ww2censor]] ([[User talk:Ww2censor|talk]]) 23:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

== Request on 23:23:46, 17 December 2021 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by DavidJMoss ==
{{anchor|23:23:46, 17 December 2021 review of submission by DavidJMoss}}
{{Lafc|username=DavidJMoss|ts=23:23:46, 17 December 2021|declinedtalk=Draft:Tobey_C._Moss_Gallery}}

<!-- Start of message -->
I have been working to get an article "DRAFT:TOBEY C.Moss Gallery" about an art dealer to match the format of other art dealers listed in wikipedia like Mary Boone and Sidney Janis and others listed under "List of art dealers". For Theroadislong to say that it "appears to read more like an advertisement than an entry in an encyclopedia" and the others do not is false and misleading. It is a historically important gallery created to make niche market for a particular style of contemporary art.  [[User:DavidJMoss|DavidJMoss]] ([[User talk:DavidJMoss|talk]]) 23:23, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

<!-- End of message -->[[User:DavidJMoss|DavidJMoss]] ([[User talk:DavidJMoss|talk]]) 23:23, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
:Hello, {{u|DavidJMoss}}. [[Mary Boone]] and her galley have been the subject of significant coverage in ''many'' reliable, independent sources, including a cover story in Time magazine. As for [[Sidney Janis]], the critic [[Clement Greenberg]] wrote an essay analyzing his career which was published by the [[University of Chicago Press]] and the New York Times published a 17 paragraph article when he died. The NYT published a 12 paragraph article about him in 1964 (which isn't even referenced yet), and the Los Angeles Times ran an significant article about him and his traveling show. Your draft only has one reference to significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. It is all about the quality of the references which are much better in the case of those two articles than in the case of your draft. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 01:24, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
::As for your claim that this is a "historically important gallery created to make niche market for a particular style of contemporary art", that does not align with the description by the Los Angeles Times in the best of your references, which describes "a 495-year-old engraving by Albrecht Dürer" at the entrance to the gallery and summarizes it as "Like an eccentric aunt’s attic, “The Big 3-0” is stuffed with a lifetime of loves and discoveries that refuse to be shoehorned into tidy categories." [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 03:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

= December 18 =

== 06:13:17, 18 December 2021 review of submission by Mwill66 ==
{{Lafc|username=Mwill66|ts=06:13:17, 18 December 2021|page= Draft:Hume's Pass

}} 

This is a nightmare. I have responded to a message from something named TheChunky in relation to Draft:Hume's Pass about ten minutes ago. I have no idea if it went anywhere. The response that I was given to the Draft:Hume's Pass was that it should use independent sources, not be opinion, and look like an encyclopaedia, or words to that effect.

It is an article of the highest imaginable historical credibility and veracity and is entirely made up independent sources that happen to be ancient as they go in Australia. It is the assembly, surveying analysis and translation of journals and maps prepared by Hamilton Hume and Captain William Hilton Hovell in 1824 and 1825 when they made the first journey into what became the State of Victoria. This journey made Australia a viable country for the first time in its history. The revelations are considered to be of the highest historical importance to Australia. The whole of the material is of the finest primary source documents that exist on the subject in Australia.

Consequently the comments are incomprehensible.

I would appreciate it if any person can make any response so that this turns into a communication. 

Thanks,

Martin

[[User:Mwill66|Mwill66]] ([[User talk:Mwill66|talk]]) 06:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi Folks,

I am making another attempt at communication. This is the message that I received.

"This submission reads more like an essay than an encyclopedia article. Submissions should summarise information in secondary, reliable sources and not contain opinions or original research. Please write about the topic from a neutral point of view in an encyclopedic manner."

This response has zero usable content. This writer has an entire career in internationally published refereed research in science and now history.

There are zero "opinions". Where is the of lack of "secondary, reliable sources". Every assertion is extracted from the highest quality independent primary source documents that exist on this subject and includes foundation documents of Australian history that are 197 years old and are as important as any that exist in this country.

Is TheChunky conveying that "original research" precludes the use of these foundation primary source documents? 

Did the reviewer TheChunky actually read the citation list? It includes publications in the most reputable double-blind refereed Historical Journal in Australia? Does the reviewer know how difficult it is to get past double-blind refereeing?

I seek assistance 

Martin

 



[[User:Mwill66|Mwill66]] ([[User talk:Mwill66|talk]]) 06:33, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{u|Mwill66}} I would suggest that you look at some other articles about geographic features(perhaps [[Independence Pass (Colorado)]] or [[Cottonwood Pass]] or others similar) to get a better idea of how they should be written.  It is true that an article should primarily be based on secondary, independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] and not [[WP:PRIMARY|primary sources]]. For further comment, please edit this existing section, instead of creating a new section. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 08:45, 18 December 2021 (UTC)


I make yet another attempt to communicate with a human being. A good-nature person left this response:


Mwill66 (talk) 06:33, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Mwill66 I would suggest that you look at some other articles about geographic features(perhaps Independence Pass (Colorado) or Cottonwood Pass or others similar) to get a better idea of how they should be written. It is true that an article should primarily be based on secondary, independent reliable sources and not primary sources. For further comment, please edit this existing section, instead of creating a new section. 331dot (talk) 08:45, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea how to respond to that person. There is nothing whatever on the page of mess that indicates a method of response.

I shall try this. My counter is, please look at Sugarloaf Creek, Victoria, Australia. I wrote that in 2019 with brand new information that had never been seen by the human race before that came from original research that continues to be acclaimed by historians. Nobody at wikipedia complained about it and that page was published.

Draft:Hume's Pass has nothing to do with a routine geographical article on a feature like Cottonwood Pass. It is about lost knowledge of a major historical feature whose location was lost to history for 197 years. Nobody cares whether it snows on Hume's Pass or not. 

It is just ludicrous that wikipedia suddenly wants "secondary" sources. Do you have a new policy that you want a twitter sentence, or some bizarre backwoods web page written in sublime ignorance? Of course you do not.

You have before you information that was subjected to double-blind, independent review by professorial level historians in order for it to appear in front of you.

Pleas now be quite explicit. Please write this if it is true: Wikipedia has a new policy that it does not accept the findings of double-blind professorial level review for its articles, making it the only organisation on this planet that perpetrates such rejection. Please put that explicitly in writing.

This sentence: "based on secondary, independent reliable sources and not primary sources" entirely obviates the Research Method. Do not come up with anything new. Just drag out your 1835 medical dictionary and quote that. The one about sawing off legs without anesthetic. That is not sarcasm. It is a desperate attempt to communicate.

You are looking at very important brand new factual information about Victoria, Australia.

So far it is good enough for the world acclaimed Royal Historical Society of Victoria, but not to wikipedia. You know that that is ridiculous.

Martin

[[Special:Contributions/182.239.187.222|182.239.187.222]] ([[User talk:182.239.187.222|talk]]) 09:46, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:Make sure you are logged in before posting. You are communicating with me now, I am here, you can address me directly. You may find this easier if you use full desktop mode in a browser(not the app or mobile versions, which do not have full functionality). In desktop mode there should be an "edit" link in the section header, allowing you to edit this section without creating a new one.
:Wikipedia does not suddenly want secondary sources, this has always been the case. If your sources consist of a historian other than yourself analyzing primary sources, that would be a secondary source. This isn't as hard as you seem to think it is, but I can understand your frustration. Writing on Wikipedia is different than scholarly writing. Please understand that this is a volunteer project. If the reviewer was confused about your sources, please communicate with them directly at [[User talk:TheChunky]]. We really do want to help you. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

== 08:25:53, 18 December 2021 review of draft by 2603:8000:BF44:AB93:4C75:A5DB:28E:6B3E ==
{{Lafc|username=2603:8000:BF44:AB93:4C75:A5DB:28E:6B3E|ts=08:25:53, 18 December 2021|draft=Draft:Hera_Anderson}}


[[Special:Contributions/2603:8000:BF44:AB93:4C75:A5DB:28E:6B3E|2603:8000:BF44:AB93:4C75:A5DB:28E:6B3E]] ([[User talk:2603:8000:BF44:AB93:4C75:A5DB:28E:6B3E|talk]]) 08:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Can you check and let me know if you can verify the content I'm submitting. Thank you.

:I have left a comment on the draft. [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span><sup><small>Timtrent</small></sup>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span><sup><small>Talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;me</small></sup>]] 09:18, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

== 11:38:20, 18 December 2021 review of draft by Lmical ==
{{Lafc|username=Lmical|ts=11:38:20, 18 December 2021|draft=Draft:Rémi_Abgrall}}

Hi, thanks for your attention and sorry to bother you. I'd need some help with the sources.
They seem not to be enough and I've been pleased to add sources which are not "self published".
But actually my sources are
1) the official page of the Journal of Computational Physiscs: https://www.journals.elsevier.com/journal-of-computational-physics/editorial-board
2) the official page of the International Congress of Mathematicians: http://www.icm2014.org/en/participants/registration/participants.html
3) the official page of the Mathematics Genealogy Project provided by the NDSU Department of Mathematics in association with the American Mathematical Society: https://www.mathgenealogy.org/id.php?id=80484
4) the official page of INRIA: https://www.inria.fr/en/remi-abgrall
5) the official page of the University of Zurich: https://www.math.uzh.ch/index.php?id=people&key1=8882

Moreover I would like to create hyperlinks to official Wikipedia pages where prof. Abgrall is already mentioned
1) Journal of Computational Physics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Computational_Physics
2) International Journal for Numerical Methods in Fluids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Journal_for_Numerical_Methods_in_Fluids
3) List of International Congresses of Mathematicians Plenary and Invited Speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_International_Congresses_of_Mathematicians_Plenary_and_Invited_Speakers
4) Rémi Abgrall's Wikipedia page in Portuguese:https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9mi_Abgrall

This is my first time so I'm sure I'm committing mistakes, could you please help me?

[[User:Lmical|Lmical]] ([[User talk:Lmical|talk]]) 11:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:I've approved the article.   It needs some work but notability is met and void of promotional or defamatory material.  From a resources perspective, better to let the community handle from here. pinging {{u|Novem Linguae}}, since you had input. Open to other editors thoughts on my reasoning, particularly if its wrong. [[User:Slywriter|Slywriter]] ([[User talk:Slywriter|talk]]) 17:52, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
::Hey {{u|Slywriter}}. Thanks for the ping. I don't accept articles like this anymore due to one of them getting [[WP:G11]]'d after I'd accepted and marked as reviewed, but I am fine with you doing so. {{u|Lmical}}, all the sources you mention are still [[WP:SELFPUBLISHED]], official websites have no editor and no editorial process, anyone can put up a website. These are not really ideal sources on Wikipedia. Citations to newspaper articles, books, and scholarly journals that are not written by the subject and that go into multiple paragraphs of detail about the subject would be the kind of sources that would be ideal. To make a link to another Wikipedia article (a wikilink), use the following syntax: <code><nowiki>[[article name]]</nowiki></code>. Or in the [[WP:VISUALEDITOR]], highlight the text and click the link button, or highlight the text and press Control+K. Hope that helps. Happy editing. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:limegreen">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 22:53, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

== 12:01:55, 18 December 2021 review of submission by Mwill66 ==
{{Lafc|username=Mwill66|ts=12:01:55, 18 December 2021|page= Draft:Hume's Pass

}}

Dear Strictly anonymous person that I cannot respond to in this mess of what looks like primitive 1972 DOS code. 

Let me put it another way. Albert Einstein approaches wiki with an original webpage name THE THEORY OF GENERAL RELATIVITY. It is entirely original. You say, "No Al, we reject it until you get it onto someone else's twitter account, you can only use fifteen alphanumerics, or maybe get it on a Downtown Upwheresville URL in middle Siberia." 

Please take this to a supervisor. It is not possible that wikipedia rejects original, verified by independent double blind review, content.

Go look at Hume and Hovell Expedition. You have been begging for years for "INLINE CITATIONS" on that page. I could provide all of them. Why would I bother? You do not accept "ORIGINAL" material.

There is a fundamental communication deficiency here. Go read George Orwell's 1984. I am here to write content, not to be savaged by lack of knowledge of all of these things: the Scientific Method, Chain of Evidence in Law, evidence based history.

Are you sensing a touch of a communication gap here? From the great wikipedia?

Yours in desperation,

Martin

[[User:Mwill66|Mwill66]] ([[User talk:Mwill66|talk]]) 12:01, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:YES! if Albert Einstein approached Wikipedia with an original webpage named "THE THEORY OF GENERAL RELATIVITY" it would be outright rejected, Wikipedia ONLY accepts content supported by reliable independent sources. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 12:24, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{u|Mwill66}} There are no supervisors. I have the administrator tools, but I have no higher status than any other editors. We don't accept original material, but we accept the reporting of original material. We would accept the New York Times telling that Einstein published a new theory, but not Einstein telling us about it himself. I'm sorry that you find that frustrating. We don't want it on a twitter account, we want independent, published [[WP:RS|reliable sources]](please click the link to read). If you just want to tell the world about what you have found, I would suggest a peer reviewed scholarly journal, not Wikipedia unless- again- independent sources already report it. If that's too frustrating for you accept, I regret that very much, but that is what we are. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 12:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:You should consider switching to the [[WP:VISUALEDITOR]]. Then you won't have to work with the primitive 1972 DOS code. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:limegreen">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 22:48, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

== 14:27:24, 18 December 2021 review of draft by AmirahBreen ==
{{Lafc|username=AmirahBreen|ts=14:27:24, 18 December 2021|draft=Draft:Tauqir_Sharif}}

I published this draft and it was put back to draft. I have now amended it and wish do publish it again. Do I have no choice now but to go through afc?
I would rather not do so as it says it can take three months or more. Can I move it to mainspace again myself? 

[[User:AmirahBreen|<span style="color: darkblue">Amirah</span>]] [[User talk:AmirahBreen|<span style="color: darkgreen">talk</span>]] 14:27, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{u|AmirahBreen}} If you are not experienced in creating articles, I would strongly advise you to allow the AFC process to play out, as it's better to find any issues now. However, if you are 95-100% confident that your draft would survive an Articles for Deletion discussion, you can move it into the encyclopedia if you wish. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
::<nowiki>I have created over 25 articles on Wikipedia over the last 7 years. </nowiki> [[User:AmirahBreen|<span style="color: darkblue">Amirah</span>]] [[User talk:AmirahBreen|<span style="color: darkgreen">talk</span>]] 14:43, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:::Then I would say it's up to you(again, if you think it would survive an AFD). [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:45, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:Wikipedia [[WP:DEADLINE|has no deadlines]], so are you under a particular time constraint that requires a speedy review? [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:37, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
::the article has been reviewed now thank you. [[User:AmirahBreen|<span style="color: darkblue">Amirah</span>]] [[User talk:AmirahBreen|<span style="color: darkgreen">talk</span>]] 14:44, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

== 15:09:44, 18 December 2021 review of draft by SeldonTheGreatMasterOfHumanity ==
{{Lafc|username=SeldonTheGreatMasterOfHumanity|ts=15:09:44, 18 December 2021|draft=Draft:Bong_Gong}}
{{SAFESUBST:Void|

how do I edit this draft?

[[User:SeldonTheGreatMasterOfHumanity|SeldonTheGreatMasterOfHumanity]] ([[User talk:SeldonTheGreatMasterOfHumanity|talk]]) 15:09, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{reply| SeldonTheGreatMasterOfHumanity}} Given that the draft has no references to [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], you would need to find them and include them.  I couldn’t find anything to indicate that the subject isn’t a complete hoax, I’d recommend not editing the draft at all unless those sources are found.  [[WP:NFT|Wikipedia is not for things you and your friends made up one day.]] --[[User:Finngall|<b style="color: green;">Finngall</b>]] [[User Talk:Finngall|<sup style="color: #D4A017;">talk</sup>]] 15:31, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
::Also asked and answered at Teahouse. Draft has been tagged for Speedy deletion. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 17:31, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

== 17:45:22, 18 December 2021 review of submission by JaredMars ==
{{Lafc|username=JaredMars|ts=17:45:22, 18 December 2021|declined=Draft:Plotagon's_Jared:_The_Movie}}
I made some changes
[[User:JaredMars|JaredMars]] ([[User talk:JaredMars|talk]]) 17:50, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

== 21:37:59, 18 December 2021 review of submission by Mwill66 ==
{{Lafc|username=Mwill66|ts=21:37:59, 18 December 2021|page=Draft:Hume's Pass

}}

Another uncontactable person has entered the conversation. I greatly appreciate them taking the time to do it. Please tell me how to respond to a commentator so that I do not have to go back to this method.

It is now clear now that none of the commentators, especially the first one, has either read the article, or comprehended its content. 

The most recent person wrote this: "If you just want to tell the world about what you have found, I would suggest a peer reviewed scholarly journal".

That is highly insulting and demonstrates that the person who wrote it has not read the article and does not understand the meaning of the citations in the article.

The central source of information for the article is this: Williams, Martin. Hamilton Hume Sketch Maps: Origins and Modern Treatment, Victorian Historical Journal, Vol. 92, No. 1, June 2021, p. 21.

All the others are confirmed historical facts.

It is an article that has been double-blind peer reviewed (aka refereed) by two professorial level historians unknown to me, in the most important historical journal in Australia. Prior to getting to them it had to be reviewed by two other professorial level historian editors for overt value and credibility. That makes four professorial level historians. You know that wikipedia is desperate for that gold-plated level of verification. You ask for it all the time. Please read Hume and Hovell Expedition. 

That means that it is not brand new unsupported opinion from one individual, it is the quoting of peer reviewed scholarly material so that it can be taken to a wider audience. This is a good thing for wikipedia.

What I am seeing is that the original wikipedia reviewer had no comprehension of what they were reading, and once that person had rejected it, everyone else has piled on to back up the original reviewer. Result? You do not have to examine that just maybe there was an error.

This is compounded by it being impossible to communicate with one decision maker. The first reviewer is wrong on your very own rules. This latest commentator is wrong on the rules that they have just told me to follow. The in-between one did not read it.

Wikipedia must be able to do better than this.

I now assume that nobody has bothered to look at Sugarloaf Creek, Victoria, Australia. I wrote it in 2019 and it was accepted by wikipedia based on my quoting of a "peer reviewed scholarly journal", just as you now recommend.

What are you going to do? Review Sugarloaf Creek, Victoria, Australia and take it out because of what reason? Something to do with quoting a "peer reviewed scholarly journal"?

There is a great big error in here and it is not my error.

Do you have one person, a decision-maker, who is prepared to actually read and understand the article and the quality of its citations, and who is capable of acknowledging the possibility that a wikipedia reviewer might have made an error?

Martin


[[User:Mwill66|Mwill66]] ([[User talk:Mwill66|talk]]) 21:37, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:{{U|Mwill66}} You have cited your own work, "Williams, Martin. Hamilton Hume Sketch Maps: Origins and Modern Treatment, Victorian Historical Journal", please could you add the publisher details too.  I'm not sure why you consider users to be "uncontactable"  all users have talk pages, you can simply click their talk page link and leave them a message. The draft was declined because it reads more like an essay, so it is the tone that needs improving to make it read more like an encyclopedia article.. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 22:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
::{{U|Mwill66}} I am still here, you don't need to talk about me like I am not. I did read it, and stand by what I've said. I've suggested that you review other similar articles to get a sense of how articles about geographic features should be written, as style was one of the issues raised. 
::Citing your own work is a major [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] and a [[WP:PRIMARY|primary source]].
::There is not a single decision maker on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a community project where decisions are made through consensus and collaboration. I'm not sure how my comment gave you offense, but I apologize. 
::Again, please edit this existing section for further comment, instead of creating new sections every time. There should be an "edit" link in the section header. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 22:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Dear Theroadislong and 331dot
I am now consciously responding in this fashion for self-protection. Also the “talk” hot links connect me to masses of DOS in which I cannot find the conversation.
The publisher of Williams, Martin. Hamilton Hume Sketch Maps: Origins and Modern Treatment, Victorian Historical Journal, is the Victorian Historical Journal.
https://www.historyvictoria.org.au/publications/victorian-historical-journal/
That is standard and compulsory historical journal citation. I do thank you for your question.
The article has nothing to do with observations about a standard geographical feature, much as I do appreciate the suggestion to look at them. That means that its writer does not understand the nature of the article.
Please see it from this following expression of its reality.
It is a work of history.
It is a reflection of a major discovery in the history of Australia and of Victoria, vetted and accepted as factual after 197 years, good enough to survive analysis by a total of four eminent professors of colonial history in Australia. It is that important. So far it is not good enough for Wikipedia.
To give you the brief facts. Hamilton Hume and Captain William Hilton Hovell made the first journey of discovery into Victoria in 1824. On the 13th December, 1824 they were in desperate circumstances with injuries and shortage of food and made one final attempt to break through the mountainous forest that they had been stuck in for a week.
Hume on horseback in front of his colleagues found a pass through the mountains at his very last attempt. The rest of the party were straggling behind, threatening mutiny.
When he found the pass the party was overjoyed because the journey had been converted from abject failure into a triumph. The location of that pass, that Hume and Hovell named “Hume’s Pass” on that day, was lost for 197 years.
It has now been re-found. The identification of that location is critical to Australian history. 
It happens that a certain author went through the original journals and the map of that very day, re-analyzed them, presented a scholarly paper to the most important historical journal in Australia, and had it published.
I put to you that is of Australian importance for it to be more widely known and readily accessible on Wikipedia. I already have the highest accolades from Australian historians. I do not need this grief. I am not trying to hoodwink Wikipedia.
I am sure that this is unintentional but from this end of the keyboard it is now tantamount to bullying to escalate into further Wikipedia bureaucratic jargon by writing that “Citing your own work is a major conflict of interest and a primary source” in this particular case. 
I request that you comprehend the nature of the article for what it is.
It is the first ever accurate expression of the actual handwritten materials of Hamilton Hume and William Hovell of the 13th December, 1824. Their handwriting, not mine. None of it is my opinion, and it has been assessed as an entirely accurate rendition by four professors of colonial history That makes it the work of seven people, starting from 1824. 
I repeat that this is identical in origin to the Wikipedia article that I wrote, Sugarloaf Creek, Victoria, Australia. It was the first pastoral station ever built in Victorian history by the first European who ever walked on that soil. That reality was proven and also was published as factual history by the Victorian Historical Journal.
Will Wikipedia now descend into outright thuggery and remove that article in order to protect an error of 2021?
I would like to see evidence of your consensus approach. There is only the smallest glimpse of it so far. 
Martin


[[User:Mwill66|Mwill66]] ([[User talk:Mwill66|talk]]) 23:43, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
:Your attitude and lengthy posts that [[WP:TLDR|are almost too long to read]] are both becoming tiresome so I am going to withdraw from this conversation, wish you the best, and hope that maybe someone else will get through to you since I have apparently failed to do so and offended you in the process. And you are still creating new sections with every post instead of editing this existing section directly. If you edit this existing section, simply scroll to the bottom of the edit window and post under the existing text. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 00:10, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

::{{U|Mwill66}} Your aggressive tone is not welcome here, your plea to "comprehend the nature of the article for what it is" has been responded to, your wall of text confirms that the original reviewer was correct in their assessment that the draft reads like an essay. There is absolutely no DOS involved anywhere on talk pages. For instance my talk page has a clear link at the top stating "Welcome to my talk page. Click here to leave me a message" See [[WP:CIR]] [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 08:49, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

== 10:15:03, 19 December 2021 review of submission by 182.239.187.222 ==
{{Lafc|username=182.239.187.222|ts=10:15:03, 19 December 2021|page=Draft:Hume's Pass

}}

Hi Folks,
I ask questions as to how to address an original review of a draft article and I get Wikipedia jargon with no content.
I point out that it is not a geographical observation about a location but important Australian history.
I am told to take the material for refereed publication in a scholarly journal.
I have already done that and point it out.
I am then told that I cannot use it in spite of the refereed publication because I wrote it.
I point out that it was in effect written or substantiated by seven people starting from two people in 1824. No answer.
I point out that an article of identical origin, Sugarloaf Creek, Victoria, Australia, was accepted with no fuss. No answer.
Now it is anger and insults, including too many words to read.
Where is the calm rational objective review of the facts of the matter and an attempt to reach a mutual understanding. 
Is this the great Wikipedia, the modern knowledge base of the world?
Martin


[[Special:Contributions/182.239.187.222|182.239.187.222]] ([[User talk:182.239.187.222|talk]]) 10:15, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
:"the calm rational objective review of the facts of the matter" is just above in your previous post namely "the original reviewer was correct in their assessment that the draft reads like an essay" which part of this do you not understand? See [[WP:OSE|other poor quality articles exist]] for your argument about [[Sugarloaf Creek, Victoria]]. Please also remember to log in whenever you edit. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 10:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

== 11:07:45, 19 December 2021 review of submission by Mwill66 ==
{{Lafc|username=Mwill66|ts=11:07:45, 19 December 2021|page=Draft:Hume's Pass

}}
Hi Folks,
I ask questions as to how to address an original review of a draft article and I get Wikipedia jargon with no content.
I point out that it is not a geographical observation about a location but important Australian history.
I am told to take the material for refereed publication in a scholarly journal.
I have already done that and point it out.
I am then told that I cannot use it in spite of it having been refereed because I wrote it.
I point out that it was in effect written or substantiated by seven people starting from two people in 1824. No answer.
I point out that an article of identical origin, Sugarloaf Creek, Victoria, Australia, was accepted with no fuss. No answer.
Now it is anger and insults including that there are too many words.
Where is the calm rational objective review of the facts of the matter and an attempt to reach a mutual understanding.
Is this the great Wikipedia, the modern knowledge base of the world?
Martin


[[User:Mwill66|Mwill66]] ([[User talk:Mwill66|talk]]) 11:07, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
:Please read all the responses above and stop creating new sections, it is beginning to look like [[WP:CIR]] applies here. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 11:25, 19 December 2021 (UTC)